Member Reports?

[Wally243264]

Hello,
I was curious if you were going to permit members to post their field reports? I have a couple of examples I would like to share. Hopefully, I won't be judged harshly.

Thanks,
Steve

 

[Petey308]

Hello,
I was curious if you were going to permit members to post their field reports? I have a couple of examples I would like to share. Hopefully, I won't be judged harshly.

Thanks,
Steve

Absolutely! This is what this site is all about. I’ll contribute what I can, but I’d much rather have this forum be a place where the hunting and shooting community can share and discuss their own findings, reports, ask questions, and learn from one another. So please share away. And harsh judgement would be moderated accordingly.

 

[Wally243264]

Absolutely! This is what this site is all about. I’ll contribute what I can, but I’d much rather have this forum be a place where the hunting and shooting community can share and discuss their own findings, reports, ask questions, and learn from one another. So please share away. And harsh judgement would be moderated accordingly.

I have 3 examples I would like to share:

1) I had a doe pronghorn antelope tag. On the ranch I hunt, it is very difficult to get close for various reasons. We spotted a buck and two does across a wide draw. The shooting conditions were close to perfect as you get. It was overcast with no mirage. As I was setting up to shoot, there was a 2 mph wind blowing straight into my face. My rangefinder consistently showed 738 yards, 13.5 moa elevation, with 0.5 moa left hold off. I was shooting my 6 CM with a 109 ELD-M. I could tell the doe was slightly quartering towards me, and watching me intently. POI was slightly behind the shoulder. I'm not sure if she was quartering more than I thought, or the bullet turned slightly on impact. The bullet hit the center of the near lung, exited the rear of the lung, tore the liver in half, and exited the off-side flank. The does walked slowly about 10 yards, reared up and fell dead.

2) My wife elected to hunt from a blind. It was positioned about 200 yards from a stock pond. When a herd of does tried to come in to drink, the rutting herd buck pushed the does away from the water. The herd moved past her blind. The buck stopped about 160 yards from her, and stared at the blind. She had a 15 mph right to left wind. The buck was facing to her left and broadside. She was shooting her trusty little 6BR with a 95 gr Berger Classic Hunter. The bullet hit the front of the shoulders at the base of the neck and exited. He dropped in his tracks.

3) Last was my elk hunt in northern New Mexico. My guides spotted a big-bodied six point bull across a canyon. It was getting late. The conditions were dead calm. I ranged him at 694 yards. I was using my 6.5-284 with 140 gr Berger Elite Hunters. The rangefinder showed 11.25 moa elevation with no hold-off. The bull was slightly quartering away and slightly below my position. He was grazing when I shot. The bullet hit him slightly high behind the right shoulder, and probably angled downward towards his brisket. The bullet did not exit. He turned, stumbled down hill a few steps and went down. It was dark when the guides field dressed him. His chest cavity was blood soup. Because of the circumstances, no bullet was found.

FWIW,
Steve

 

[NibblesLRH]

I have 3 examples I would like to share:

1) I had a doe pronghorn antelope tag. On the ranch I hunt, it is very difficult to get close for various reasons. We spotted a buck and two does across a wide draw. The shooting conditions were close to perfect as you get. It was overcast with no mirage. As I was setting up to shoot, there was a 2 mph wind blowing straight into my face. My rangefinder consistently showed 738 yards, 13.5 moa elevation, with 0.5 moa left hold off. I was shooting my 6 CM with a 109 ELD-M. I could tell the doe was slightly quartering towards me, and watching me intently. POI was slightly behind the shoulder. I'm not sure if she was quartering more than I thought, or the bullet turned slightly on impact. The bullet hit the center of the near lung, exited the rear of the lung, tore the liver in half, and exited the off-side flank. The does walked slowly about 10 yards, reared up and fell dead.

2) My wife elected to hunt from a blind. It was positioned about 200 yards from a stock pond. When a herd of does tried to come in to drink, the rutting herd buck pushed the does away from the water. The herd moved past her blind. The buck stopped about 160 yards from her, and stared at the blind. She had a 15 mph right to left wind. The buck was facing to her left and broadside. She was shooting her trusty little 6BR with a 95 gr Berger Classic Hunter. The bullet hit the front of the shoulders at the base of the neck and exited. He dropped in his tracks.

3) Last was my elk hunt in northern New Mexico. My guides spotted a big-bodied six point bull across a canyon. It was getting late. The conditions were dead calm. I ranged him at 694 yards. I was using my 6.5-284 with 140 gr Berger Elite Hunters. The rangefinder showed 11.25 moa elevation with no hold-off. The bull was slightly quartering away and slightly below my position. He was grazing when I shot. The bullet hit him slightly high behind the right shoulder, and probably angled downward towards his brisket. The bullet did not exit. He turned, stumbled down hill a few steps and went down. It was dark when the guides field dressed him. His chest cavity was blood soup. Because of the circumstances, no bullet was found.

FWIW,
Steve

Congratulations on your successful hunts. As far as your first animal. It’s most likely that it was quartered more than you actually thought. It happens more often than people realize. One of the biggest reasons why I prefer and recommend tipped bullets is reliability. Non tipped bullets are more sensitive to impact angles. Too much angle can cause the tip of the bullet to fold over preventing it from expanding. It can result in penciling, changing directions, and or tumbling. Tipped bullets are less sensitive to impact angles. The cavity is shaped to guide the tip back into the core initiating expansion. Even when it impacts at an angle it is still being pushed straight back into the core. So the likelihood of it changing direction is very low. That’s why I say the more likely scenario is that it was simply angled more than you thought. Hope this information is helpful and if you have any questions feel free to ask.

 

[Wally243264]

Congratulations on your successful hunts. As far as your first animal. It’s most likely that it was quartered more than you actually thought. It happens more often than people realize. One of the biggest reasons why I prefer and recommend tipped bullets is reliability. Non tipped bullets are more sensitive to impact angles. Too much angle can cause the tip of the bullet to fold over preventing it from expanding. It can result in penciling, changing directions, and or tumbling. Tipped bullets are less sensitive to impact angles. The cavity is shaped to guide the tip back into the core initiating expansion. Even when it impacts at an angle it is still being pushed straight back into the core. So the likelihood of it changing direction is very low. That’s why I say the more likely scenario is that it was simply angled more than you thought. Hope this information is helpful and if you have any questions feel free to ask.

Thank-you. I appreciate you sharing your insights and experience. I will definitely take your advice seriously. I have been a Berger fan for quite a while. I have always found them easy to tune to my personal accuracy standards. Also, I have never had a problem with them killing quickly. But, I have noticed that seems to be quite a few people who were less than satisfied with their terminal performance. Your statement has me wondering if some of the issues may have been caused by the bullet tip folding over. I know a tumbling bullet can cause a nasty wound channel. In those cases, the results would most likely be satisfactory. But penciling and changing directions may not work out well.

So, which tipped bullets do you like? I'm curious.

Thanks,
Steve

 

[NibblesLRH]

Thank-you. I appreciate you sharing your insights and experience. I will definitely take your advice seriously. I have been a Berger fan for quite a while. I have always found them easy to tune to my personal accuracy standards. Also, I have never had a problem with them killing quickly. But, I have noticed that seems to be quite a few people who were less than satisfied with their terminal performance. Your statement has me wondering if some of the issues may have been caused by the bullet tip folding over. I know a tumbling bullet can cause a nasty wound channel. In those cases, the results would most likely be satisfactory. But penciling and changing directions may not work out well.

So, which tipped bullets do you like? I'm curious.

Thanks,
Steve

So the vast majority of complaints about bergers are nonsense from people who don’t know what they’re talking about or lying. Example the claim that the bullet impacted, blew up, and only penetrated a couple inches. I’ve investigated over 300 cases of this claim. That’s reviewing videos, talking to others there, etc. Not a single case where it was actually true. The vast majority of the time the guy just missed or made a bad shot and just blamed the bullet. They heard or read someone else claiming that happened and then just used it as an excuse. The truth is that it would require an impossible amount of velocity to achieve that on game. I just had a guy the other day claiming that. He missed a deer at 20 yards. Instead of admitting that he claimed that the 30 cal 185 Berger blew up only penetrating 3” and that’s why he never recovered the deer. He was obviously lying about the penetration amount because he never found the deer. After digging in I proved that he was lying and just missed the deer. You could literally neck down a 50 bmg to a 30 cal and still not achieve enough velocity to achieve what he’s claiming let alone from the cartridge he’s using. The legit cases of issues are from the tip folding over and not expanding. This is from impact angles or the tip clogging. Tumbling is not a good thing though. It’s very inconsistent and the only damage is when the bullet is completely sideways and that’s only for a small amount of time. In some cases on impact the back of the bullet comes forward and it impacts sideways on the hide and ribs. That drastically increases the surface area and drastically slows the bullet minimizing the penetration. The only bergers that I don’t recommend are the VLD’s. The post 2011 design changes makes it more susceptible to these issues. The amount of actual Berger failures are incredibly small however. As long as you stay in the velocity threshold for the bullet above 1600 fps you will have good results. As far as the tipped bullets I recommend. The best are Hornady amax, eld match, and A tips. Sierra it’s the tipped match kings. Those are the top 4 bullets that I use and recommend to people.

 

[Wally243264]

So the vast majority of complaints about bergers are nonsense from people who don’t know what they’re talking about or lying. Example the claim that the bullet impacted, blew up, and only penetrated a couple inches. I’ve investigated over 300 cases of this claim. That’s reviewing videos, talking to others there, etc. Not a single case where it was actually true. The vast majority of the time the guy just missed or made a bad shot and just blamed the bullet. They heard or read someone else claiming that happened and then just used it as an excuse. The truth is that it would require an impossible amount of velocity to achieve that on game. I just had a guy the other day claiming that. He missed a deer at 20 yards. Instead of admitting that he claimed that the 30 cal 185 Berger blew up only penetrating 3” and that’s why he never recovered the deer. He was obviously lying about the penetration amount because he never found the deer. After digging in I proved that he was lying and just missed the deer. You could literally neck down a 50 bmg to a 30 cal and still not achieve enough velocity to achieve what he’s claiming let alone from the cartridge he’s using. The legit cases of issues are from the tip folding over and not expanding. This is from impact angles or the tip clogging. Tumbling is not a good thing though. It’s very inconsistent and the only damage is when the bullet is completely sideways and that’s only for a small amount of time. In some cases on impact the back of the bullet comes forward and it impacts sideways on the hide and ribs. That drastically increases the surface area and drastically slows the bullet minimizing the penetration. The only bergers that I don’t recommend are the VLD’s. The post 2011 design changes makes it more susceptible to these issues. The amount of actual Berger failures are incredibly small however. As long as you stay in the velocity threshold for the bullet above 1600 fps you will have good results. As far as the tipped bullets I recommend. The best are Hornady amax, eld match, and A tips. Sierra it’s the tipped match kings. Those are the top 4 bullets that I use and recommend to people.

Thanks for sharing your research and conclusions. My experience is no where near 300 examples. Between my wife and myself, we now have several examples of kills with Berger bullets, and we have been 100% successful. Even on a couple of marginal hits, which I try to avoid at all costs, the results were devastating. I only used a VLD bullet once. I quit using them after I discovered load development was much easier with the hybrid style ogives. I have had good luck with Classic Hunters and Elite Hunters.

I decided to try the 109 ELD-M's in my 6 Creed because I had heard many good things about ELD-M's for hunting. In fact, you were the one that first brought them to my attention. At the time, there were no 108's to be found. When I learned the story behind the 109's, I decided to give them a try. I picked a load for break-in and fire forming. My load development ended with that load. This rifle is probably the most accurate hunting rifle I have owned.

I have a bunch of Berger 140 Hybrid Target bullets. I understand these have a slightly thicker jacket. I also have Berger 144 Long Range Hybrid Targets, which is a factory pointed bullet. I have read and heard negatives about using these bullets for hunting. I would like to hear your thoughts, based on your experience, about these bullets.

Thanks so much for your help,
Steve

 

[NibblesLRH]

Thanks for sharing your research and conclusions. My experience is no where near 300 examples. Between my wife and myself, we now have several examples of kills with Berger bullets, and we have been 100% successful. Even on a couple of marginal hits, which I try to avoid at all costs, the results were devastating. I only used a VLD bullet once. I quit using them after I discovered load development was much easier with the hybrid style ogives. I have had good luck with Classic Hunters and Elite Hunters.

I decided to try the 109 ELD-M's in my 6 Creed because I had heard many good things about ELD-M's for hunting. In fact, you were the one that first brought them to my attention. At the time, there were no 108's to be found. When I learned the story behind the 109's, I decided to give them a try. I picked a load for break-in and fire forming. My load development ended with that load. This rifle is probably the most accurate hunting rifle I have owned.

I have a bunch of Berger 140 Hybrid Target bullets. I understand these have a slightly thicker jacket. I also have Berger 144 Long Range Hybrid Targets, which is a factory pointed bullet. I have read and heard negatives about using these bullets for hunting. I would like to hear your thoughts, based on your experience, about these bullets.

Thanks so much for your help,
Steve

Realistically the amount of actual issues with Bergers is less than 1 percent. It’s a small enough percentage that it’s not even a factor to worry about honestly. As long as you use them inside their operating velocities and take good shots you will have great results. I’m of course referring to everything except the vld’s. As far as the long range hybrid target bullets. I know quite a few guys hunting with them with no issues.

The 109 eld m is a 110 a tip with a polymer tip instead of aluminum. The a tips are the same construction as the eld m. The a tips are made sequentially per box. So each box 1-100 is made sequentially so there’s less variation from tool wear. Other bullets are made in the thousands at a time and then just put in boxes. That’s why the a tips are so consistent. The 109 eld m is done the same sequentially so they are the most consistent eld m bullets. That’s why A tips cost so much more because of everything that goes into doing them like that. It’s more time intensive to do them box by box.

 

[Petey308]

Great reports, Steve, and thanks for sharing. Congrats on those 3 kills and flat to hear the outcomes were great. After reading the report and the bullets used, it’s no surprise. Jared’s comments are spot on, as usual, and I don’t really have much else to add.

I agree most tipped bullets are a bit more reliable overall just for that simple fact they are indeed less susceptible to issues caused by angles impacts- particularly with dense tissues of bone being impacted.

That’s not saying non tipped bullets won’t work or won’t work well, that’s just saying a well designed tipped bullet can offer a bit more insurance in the less common scenarios.

I personally am a big Sierra TMK fan, but the Hornady ELDM is a great option as well and often has more options in a given caliber than the TMK. The A-tips are great too.

If you ever had to use, or wanted to use, a copper bullet, the Apex Outdoors Srage 3 Afterburners look extremely impressive. I have some experience with the original Afterburner and they worked great in my testing and I’m currently unaware of a truly bad result from anyone else using them either. And that recommendation would go for anyone reading this thread.

-Aaron